(Four)Man Podcast

Noah (00:00)
so think back to the very first job you had in construction. Maybe you were 16 and sweeping out houses. Maybe you were asked to grab a tool from the trailer that you've never heard of before. Whatever it is, that first job, those first days, they're memorable. They stick with you. Today we're going to talk about the topic of bridging the gap. Does the classroom prepare students for the industry? My name is Noah. I'm joined by Adam, Ken, and Scott.

All shop teachers, all trying to prepare students for the industry. Let's get into it. This is the Foreman Podcast.

Noah (00:45)
Ken, going to ask you a question. You are both in the industry currently and you have people that work for you. You're also in the classroom at the community college. So your students that are graduating from your program in the community college, would you hire them?

Are they job site ready?

Ken Shek (01:05)
It's kind of a, I would say some of them are. Like I currently am using one of my previous students as a subcontractor for me in my.

⁓ job so he's doing a job for me right now. There's unfortunately as many kids that has been through that program in the last three years and it's really just a construction class it's not really a full-blown program. We have a robust electrical program that a lot of apprentices go through and their employer pays for them to go through it but my construction class is an elective so I've had probably a handful of sharp students that would absolutely

could work for me, essentially. And so I guess my answer to that would be, yeah. I'm currently using probably one of the best students I've had so far. As a subcontractor, he owns his own business, was doing kind of what I was doing. He's a remodeler, works for himself. So I have him set up as a subcontractor through our business.

Scott Hughes (02:17)
you

Noah (02:19)
Was he already in the industry when he took your class?

Ken Shek (02:22)
A little bit, yes. So that's where, like the first three classes that I taught, I've been doing it for three years, they all had really sharp kids in them that had like construction experience. That's what they were doing for their job or they grew up doing it or something like that. And it seems like as this class progresses, like this semester, I had maybe one or two out of the

16 students that really knew anything about it. So they were, I think, just taking it as like a filler, not really taking it serious. And that was kind of frustrating.

Noah (03:06)
Yeah, yeah. What about you, Scott? Like you're, you've obviously had a lot of hands-on training. Do you feel like the hands-on training is what could set students up for success? And you also do credentialing. Like what do you think that sets them up for success?

Scott Hughes (03:20)
Yeah.

Well, I've got a lot of kids who take my class for it because we're in a high school and I've got a lot of kids who I think take the class just as an elective, like it's shop class. And I'm okay with that. But like kind of in that first year, I've had a lot of them, like I hear parents at parent teacher conferences, they're like, yeah, they're really surprised. Like how much there is to the class. Like there's a lot of, they have to pass. I mean, it's like 13.

tests throughout the whole year. And we try to get them through like year one of a carpenter's apprenticeship. So, I mean, that's kind of tough for like, I mean, if you're a freshman, you know, and I don't know, that could be like 15, 14, 15, 16 years old, like to go through and learn all that stuff, things, I mean, all the weird terms you've, maybe you've never read a tape measure. So I don't know. I think it's kind of a success. said, you know, you asked Ken if he had his students that are

career ready or job ready. I, know, that's kind of a loose definition. I think if kids are familiar with tools, able to read a tape measure, um, they kind of generally can function on a job site safely. You know, there's, I think about when I was doing construction, like it took such a long time. Uh, I framed houses with guys that were probably like in their 40s and

I mean, I learned by just asking questions. So it took, you know, years to like learn stuff, just doing it every day on the job, like cutting rafters and stairs, laying out walls and, know, uh, so anyway, I don't know. So we use, yes, we do credentials and, I don't know, students when we go out to the house, that's when I get students who are more serious, but still there's a lot of them that.

They're just kind of in the class because they had fun the year before and it's kind of cool. get to go out and build a house. We're out of the school for a couple hours a day and you know, but then they, they don't go get a job in construction. So, ⁓ so I'm kind of torn and I've been pondering the question of, know, ⁓ students being career ready or ready for a job in the trades. It's tough. I think it's really tough.

Noah (05:48)
you think that the industry's changed? So you said, like, I felt like it's different. I'm like you, I grew up framing, and I felt like I could, had a lot of opportunities to learn. Do you think that because of the shortage of stuff that on job sites, it's harder to train people? And am I trying to jump topic too much?

Scott Hughes (06:08)
Ooh, I don't know.

⁓ I don't know. I think with school in general, think like, like my son's in chemistry and he's like, ⁓ this topic. And I'm like, dude, what are you talking about? I did a YouTube search. I'm like, here I'm, got three different teachers that can teach me this thing. Like when you're in construction, there's, there's people that they have a whole YouTube channel of nothing but like.

teaching you all the tips and tricks of being an electrician. You know, there's so much stuff out there that can help you learn online courses. So if you are just starting as a carpenter's apprentice or like a electrical apprentice, think maybe your question was like, you're going from like task to task because there's so few people and you're kind of flying through stuff. Are you really truly learning? That's kind of how I read that. And so my answer would be

You're getting a wide range of stuff. You're getting ⁓ a very broad skill set and maybe you're not going super deep, but I think at no time in history have you been more like able to go get that information on your own and learn.

Noah (07:26)
Yeah.

Ken Shek (07:27)
gotta

be hungry enough to go find it.

Scott Hughes (07:27)
So yeah, yep.

Adam Kennard (07:28)
Yeah.

Noah (07:32)
What do you think, Adam? I think a lot of the people that you probably come in contact with are like brand new to touching tools and everything like that, maybe a little bit younger of an age.

Adam Kennard (07:39)
Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, since we're an after school program, they have to elect to come to us. But we've really just focused one of the things I've just really focused on his skills. Like, can they use the tools? Can they use a miter saw safely? Can they read a tape measure without the 16th markings on it? You know, like, can they do those things reliably and consistently? Because

Scott Hughes (08:07)
you

you

Adam Kennard (08:12)
There's a big difference between like the skill and then the knowledge of where like to lay out a wall that's different. But can they at least read a tape measure to understand that like, can they do they even notice that every 16 inches that that square is a different color than the main tape? You know, things like that is where we really focus on.

Scott Hughes (08:17)
you

you

you

Adam Kennard (08:35)
Now I've had a couple kids actually go into the construction industry and they kind of had a natural aptitude for mechanical stuff. I think a kid, it kind of like depends on the crew. is the crew, does the crew want to train someone?

If the crew wants someone fresh and to train them in how they frame, then I think one of our kids could hang. ⁓ Because we also really work on work ethic. So I just want someone that will show up and keep raising their hand to say, we need another two by four. I want my kid to be the first one running in the pile and coming back with an extra two by four to cut for whatever. ⁓

what in the world to do with the two by four, I'm gonna really depend on the crew to tell him or her to like take that next step. ⁓ So that's where like trying to work more on like the soft skills, why have them and those kinds of things is where kind of our program has really leaned into.

Noah (09:42)
Yeah, Ken said being hungry. ⁓ I thought we had Alan Myers come in and they hired like three of our students. It was really cool. They always hire our students and they always basically talk to all the students and then they ask me, hey, who here seems like a great worker? Well, like when I first started, there was a student that was deciding between going to ⁓ college or doing this. ⁓

Adam Kennard (09:45)
Yeah.

Scott Hughes (09:56)
you

Noah (10:09)
He had like a family situation where he kind of put things he wasn't 100 % sure. And I said, you know, go work for Alan Myers and just go work hard. And like, I can't teach you anything about heavy civil. That's what they do. And this obviously isn't a heavy civil, ⁓ you know, class or anything like that. But if you work hard, you'll, you'll go far. Well, when they came back, they were like, Hey, that student that you gave us, which it was, it was three, it's almost like three each year. He was like, this kid's like, he's like,

done in two and a half years what most people have done in five or six. And the one thing is that he did was he raised his hand when they said, hey, does anybody want to do this? He was always the first to raise his hand and he just outworked everybody. And I'm like, you know, it was exciting to see, you're like, can you teach work ethic? Can you do it? And I think you're right. Like you can teach that, hey, be the first to grab it, be the, you know, outwork everybody else.

So is that what you see Ken? Like when you're dealing with employees?

Ken Shek (11:13)
think so, like it's, that's sort of how I've grown up. Like I'm never the most talented person, but like I'm willing to work harder than anyone and ask questions. And I think that's what it takes in our industry in order to be successful. You can't go in there acting like you know everything, cause you don't, you're going to deal with guys that have 20, 30 years more experience than you. And it's all about perspective and

You've also, like Adam was saying, you have to have people willing to teach them, which I think is unique in the company I currently work for, that we have a lot of carpenters in our workforce that are in-house carpenters, and we're bringing in new guys constantly, our lead carpenters are used to training people. So we go through a lot of young apprentices, I would guess.

you call them just simply because some people just aren't cut out to just work hard every day, which that's what it takes to be in our industry and to be successful.

Scott Hughes (12:21)
So

Noah (12:26)
Do you think that the industry just has a hard time finding those students? Because obviously there's a huge gap, right? and you can find it anywhere and everybody knows that every builder you talk to were so short people. And they

said like basically, that's like 5 million short in like a few years and everything like that. Do you think that the hard thing is just connecting the students to the opportunity? Or do you think that there's just not enough students that are willing to work hard enough?

Ken Shek (12:53)
I think it's a mindset thing. Like with anything, with like trying to bring jobs back to America. I was listening to Mike Rowe talk to Theo Vaughn about that. And he's like, we have a lot of unemployed people, but they're don't want to do those jobs that we don't have people to fill those jobs. So it's like a mindset thing where a lot of people know construction is hard and they just maybe don't want to work that hard.

Scott Hughes (13:01)
Thanks.

you

you

Ken Shek (13:23)
if they can

sit home So that's initially why I started teaching is to try to find those guys and seek them simply because just out in the real world you gotta go through a lot of people to find those ones that you're looking for like the ones that are just willing to just put in more effort than other kids.

Noah (13:47)
were you gonna say, Scott?

Scott Hughes (13:48)
I was just going to say like, ⁓ we've discussed how goofy we were when we were younger, kids, kids need time to grow up. And, ⁓ I kind of had wrote a little mission statement for like myself for the class. And it's like, I'm going to teach you how to like work hard, have an eye for quality, work with others and like critical thinking. It's like, cause even if I have the most amazing carpentry program,

You're like 16 years old and like it, I probably could teach you. It would be the rare gem you would find. They would be awesome. like overall, I think we're trying to get kids, we're trying to progress them and like show them, Hey, this can be fun. This can be exciting. Look what you can do with your hands. Like at the end of the day, you see your work, like all that stuff we all know. ⁓ I don't know. It's exciting. I think it's exciting when I'm.

trying to explain something and a kid like, ⁓ that's not that tough. And I'm like, you got it. Like they just over complicate things and the break. Also the kid just want in school. Like I'm like, what I like about this is that we're going to, we're going to try to solve this problem. And like, if it doesn't work, like in math class, you just miss the points. If this doesn't work, we're going to.

tear it apart or unscrew it or whatever and we're gonna try it again and we're gonna get it to work. And it's gonna be awesome. I mean I still remember one of my first, I think it was my first year teaching, we were building a it was like a coat closet that was like cantilevered out over a stair hole, the stairway and it was like we gotta have six foot eight and we were chalking lines and stuff and this kid's like, how do know what angle this is? I'm like, I don't. And they just look like, what do mean? And I'm like, if it's wrong we're just gonna like,

pull it off and like cut it again. like they, people, people in general who don't know much about construction and especially students, think like you do step one, step two, step three, and it's done. And it's like perfect. And if any one of us pulled sheetrock off of our walls, we would see like things are good enough. They're close enough. You know, like it's not like the holes for the, ⁓ for Romex are like, you know,

Adam Kennard (16:07)
Not NASA.

Scott Hughes (16:10)
as big as the wire and they're all go through and none of the wire like people really think like sometimes stuff is like that because they're used to like cut and dry like it's like it's an art we get to do like we get to put a building together and like some things are close some things are dead on so you know and sometimes when it's all done you know when it's all done it's beautiful and it's amazing and it's a great great feeling so I don't know if we can get kids to like progress and

Adam Kennard (16:36)
I

know this is Adam and one thing I've ⁓ wrestled with is

Because I do intro. mean, like we teach a lot of like sixth graders, seventh graders that might have hung a picture, right? And they'll be like, Hey, Mr. Adam, can you help me do this? And then I do it really simply and like not a problem. And they're like, and then they get defeated. And I'm like, okay, so how many times in your life have you used a drill? And they're like, well, I was in class last week. I showed up on Saturday. So I was like, okay, so maybe like.

three times in your entire life. was like, I'm... Well, currently I'm 39 and I've, you know, been using it since I was five years old. So like, you know, give yourself some grace that you haven't instantly learned this skill that is a skill. Like it's not, it's something that is honed and is perfected.

Scott Hughes (17:36)
and then Adam takes it like blows off the dust, twirls it and puts it in a... You'll get there kid.

Adam Kennard (17:42)
Exactly. Right.

Noah (17:43)
There is those guys that I'm sure we've all worked with them when you're like, this guy is, you know, late 60s. I should be way out working him, but it's almost like the golf swing. He's just smooth and steady and he just crushes it every time. And you're just like, this guy is just, it's just the experience. I can't do what he does until I've done it a thousand times or 2000. Yeah.

Ken Shek (17:43)
you

Adam Kennard (17:57)
yeah.

Ken Shek (18:05)
hour

It's just no wasted movement, working efficiently.

Adam Kennard (18:11)
So I think some of the question is, like what, I think Scott's like mission statement and we have a similar mission statement in our shop where it's actually like four, we call them the four things to be successful today. We say you have to be teachable, you have to show up on time, have a positive attitude and work the entire time you're here. And we're just like, if you can do those four things, then you will be successful, like at whatever it is. But I think.

Scott Hughes (18:39)
even at work.

Adam Kennard (18:40)
Yeah, most definitely at work.

Ken Shek (18:43)
Yeah, if you do

two of those things at work, you're a rock star.

Scott Hughes (18:45)
You

Adam Kennard (18:50)
The fact that I agree with you is terrified and it's like 50 % but I think it's like those mission statements I think are great ways to like progress students to like Scott made some great points about like I Mean Ken you're dealing with

⁓ Early 20s you have a wide range your age range is a lot different Scott and I are a little closer of like everybody's under 18 but like of that idea of just working hard

kind of challenging who they are, understanding that just because I know kind of how to use a tool, that doesn't mean I know how to use it every single time I walk on the job site. Or like, how to apply it in a different way. You know, like you're talking about those stairs, you know, it's, it's the experience is everything and we just, have to keep at it to get it. ⁓

Noah (19:47)
And I think the

teachable thing is the biggest. It drives me nuts when students are like, I got it, got it, I can do it, I can do it, I can do it, I got to know what the end. I'm like, look, this is your one opportunity. If you go into the trades, I don't know if you'll have somebody that's gonna teach you. This is your opportunity to ask a question that you may be nervous to ask. Like if you're asking me questions, I'm never gonna get upset unless I've told it to you a thousand times. But like you're not gonna have this opportunity to say, hey, am I doing this right? How can I do it better?

Those things the teachable thing I think is what is huge. love the idea of a mission statement. I feel like I'm going to add that to what I what I do.

Adam Kennard (20:24)
Dude, just side note, chat GPT can really help you out there. You can kind of throw

Noah (20:29)
It's been helping me out since day one, my friend.

Scott Hughes (20:31)
Okay.

Adam Kennard (20:33)
your general ideas into that and then it will help make it mission statement-y sounding and kind of condense it. ⁓ That kind of thing.

Noah (20:42)
Yeah, yeah.

Scott Hughes (20:47)
making a note. I, I literally, I, some of my classes to become a teacher, ⁓ they had you do that. And I ran it past my principal at the time. And I was like, I mean, do you think I'm on to something here? Cause I always viewed my class as like an elective, like kids just take it to have fun. And I kind of wish I would have, ⁓ speaking of like the skills gap and, and our high school students ready to go out and work. I kind of wish I would have, ⁓

Adam Kennard (20:49)
Yeah.

Noah (20:50)
I am.

Scott Hughes (21:18)
like been more trying to attack that problem earlier. I think that's good way to put it. Like, it would have pushed me to tailor my program to be more aggressive in that way.

Noah (21:26)
Do you think?

Do you think, and kind of on that subject, do you think that like, like I wish like at a younger age, they would have a kind of an opportunity to be kind of comfortable with tools and things like that. And so by the time they got to my class, could be like their interest has already sparked almost. I feel like the tough thing is, is like, how do you get their interest sparked? Because maybe the parents have bought into this idea. I'm fortunate in my area.

Scott Hughes (21:50)
Yep.

Noah (21:59)
It's kind of a blue collar area and there's a lot of respect for the trades, which I think is vital to a successful program. ⁓ And talking with other trades teachers that maybe it's not a similar situation. think sometimes that's a struggle. ⁓ So I don't deal with a lot of the maybe the preconceived notions that like, man, there's no money in the trades or this is less than, whether it's college, whether it's whatever.

It's less than, like, I don't deal with that. So do you think that like, you know, maybe sparking their interest? Do you think that at a younger age is a game plan? Or what's a way to like really get students to kind of maybe see this as a career opportunity?

Scott Hughes (22:44)
Noah, did you have a shop class in middle school and high school?

Noah (22:49)
I did not. had my dad's company it was just like, you work. When my mom was done, she was like, done with us. It was like at 13, you just go off to the job site.

Scott Hughes (22:50)
Yeah, like was it available?

How about you, Adam?

Adam Kennard (23:06)
I had a dad. like I mean I I got my first handsaw when I was six in a hammer and nails and I remember building a toy fort from scrap wood that we found

Scott Hughes (23:16)
Wow.

Huh, alright.

Adam Kennard (23:24)
So I mean, but like I yeah, I was I've been tools have been my like love obsession since I was three years old. My dad has stories that aggravate him to this day when he retells them about me hammering screwdrivers into trees and I painted. I mean like, yeah, so like I love it. But to this point, like one of the things I've wrestled with ⁓ is like kids thinking that it's easy. ⁓

⁓

and like or aging into like sports because they you know want to go play basketball or something like that and getting sucked in so i'm trying to push our program into some earlier years and do maybe more like craft classes not so much like construction but expose them to i don't know kind of like a home depot saturday project where you just kind of like hammer together a pre-cut bird house and trying to spark that interest earlier so that way like you're

Scott Hughes (24:13)
you

That's cool.

Adam Kennard (24:25)
talking about Noah as they age ⁓ they would like come back around and stick around and ⁓ see an interest earlier ⁓ so we're trying to kind of push it more into like the fifth sixth seventh grade area so

Scott Hughes (24:42)
Ken, did

you have shop class or?

Ken Shek (24:46)
did in like sixth and seventh grade, but I mean, I also had a dad that like ordered for me to hang out with him. I was going to work. He threw me on a dozer at like 12 and said, I'll be back in a couple hours. This is what I want you to do. And I was like terrified. But then he came back in two hours and couldn't get me off the thing. And I think that's, yeah, and a forest, but.

Noah (25:10)
Destroy two houses.

Ken Shek (25:15)
I think part of the issue is, like with construction, you have to be okay at failing. Like, we fail a lot, but we learn from it and that's how we gain experience and kids these days are just taught that failure is not an option, but really that's the only way to get through life, is learning what not to do and now how not to do it.

Scott Hughes (25:37)
Yeah.

I've heard that Navy SEALs, think saying they have is fail forward fast. Like you just, if it doesn't work, you just try the next thing. If that doesn't work, try the next thing. Anyways, so what's funny is I grew up, I had middle school shop, high school shop. My dad was my high school shop teacher and we did like some woodworking and we did like built a house. I ended up like,

Noah (25:40)
So did you Scott?

Scott Hughes (26:05)
I didn't work with my dad like summers or, know, like my dad, when he was done at school, like he came home. he was also the head football coach. So he was, did that. Like quite a bit of the year, even though the season short anyways. ⁓

Adam Kennard (26:14)
Gosh.

Ken Shek (26:19)
kind of an overachiever.

Adam Kennard (26:21)
Yeah.

Scott Hughes (26:24)
So, ⁓ in

Adam Kennard (26:25)
I mean, Scott's kind

of an overachiever. He's very humble, but I mean, like, yeah, yeah, when you when you start talking about all he does, he's like, you're like, wow.

Noah (26:28)
He's low-key, yeah, yeah, very low-key.

Scott Hughes (26:30)
No, no, no.

stop it. So because here's what I don't do. My my son, he loves to like he loves to work, but not like pounding nails. He wants to like mow yards and tinker on like weed eaters. And and there's so many projects around the house. I'm like, hey, why don't you help me change this toilet or finish the basement? And ends up he's got sports practice and this and that and it ends up like.

Ken Shek (26:37)
Yeah

Scott Hughes (27:03)
I am a trades teacher and I'm not even teaching my kid, my own kid the trades. So, I don't know.

Noah (27:10)
Yeah, but I think

that, you know, the thing is, like, I think sometimes the notion is just like, want everyone to go into the trades. And that's not, right? Not everyone's gonna make it, but not as everyone's gonna enjoy it. I want to find the students that are gonna really enjoy it and really succeed in it. And how do you find those students? And how do you give them an opportunity? My biggest fear is, is a student walks out of my classroom and been like,

That was a waste of time and I really want to go into the trades, right? That would devastate me. So how do you do that? How do you improve your program? How do you connect better with the industry?

Scott Hughes (27:50)
Yeah, that's my worst fear. yeah. I've had somebody ask me, ⁓ we did like a, anyways, I talked with this kid's parent and the kid's parent said, I'm so glad you're here. He talks about you all the time. He loves you as a teacher, all this, and I'm like, your kid doesn't say a word. ⁓

Noah (27:50)
I guess that's the million dollar question, right?

I write them up every day.

Scott Hughes (28:14)
No, the kid was quiet, like doesn't say a thing. And like to me, I'm like, how is it that this is so meaningful to him? And like, like I didn't see it in the classroom. So that that's interesting. And the other thing is like, yeah, I just don't know how sometimes sometimes you're planting seeds. I had some real knuckleheads my first couple of years and those jokers came back like four years later or something, kind of at different times. Like they knew where we were at in town and they would stop by the job site and

They were like, yeah, things clicked, but not in high school. They grew up and I'm like, yeah, well, that's how it always works. But so I don't know how to get kids excited while they're there and to just ignite that fire. I think we just keep, to me, I think how I've settled that in my mind is I keep exposing them to cool things. What I think are cool things, things that excite me and I try to let my excitement come out and so.

Let's have fun doing this together.

Adam Kennard (29:17)
I think that's great. mean, just like it's always contagious to be around someone that's excited about what they're doing. And I think kids gravitate towards that. And, I think just.

you know, honestly. I mean, I think some ways in the school, I was a shop teacher in a school for three years, which is crazy now, like 15 years ago. So I think in some ways, yeah, I'm starting to get old enough to, can say 15 years. Oh, I...

Ken Shek (29:48)
old enough to be right

Noah (29:49)
He was four years old.

Scott Hughes (29:52)
You're

so- you're so unk.

Adam Kennard (29:55)
So ⁓ yeah, here we go. ⁓ But I mean, I think some of those stuff is just like...

Noah (29:56)
You

Adam Kennard (30:04)
You know, fight for little smaller classes because then you can get to know your students sometimes. And I know that's a huge tension point in public schools. I mean, we fought that all the time and I would show up and there'd be like 12 kids or 15 kids. And I would just be like, my gosh, I'm supposed to watch 15 kids. I was fresh out of college, trying to watch 15 kids, like teach them how to use the miter saw. had two kids over here using a circular saw and praying, you know, puckered up is just like, the grace of God, everyone still has their fingers.

it is, I mean, it is absolutely terrifying. ⁓

Ken Shek (30:34)
terrifying.

Adam Kennard (30:40)
But I mean, yeah, so just like small things like that, just, think, know, Noah, you're fighting for a good program. You're fighting to build a house with Habitat, and I think those things are cool. And I think just trying to do good marketing so that the student population knows that those are happening. So that way, you know, maybe that will pull in a kid or two ⁓ and actually have somebody sign up. ⁓

those kinds of things I think are just yeah.

Noah (31:09)
I think sometimes

school, you feel like they're getting in the way of a good program, but I don't think it's ill-intentioned a lot of times. ⁓ Like they want you to be successful, but just sometimes the logistics or whatever it is. Having not been from the education world, a lot of stuff is frustrating. And when I first started out, I was mad, not that I've been teaching for that long. I would get mad about that stuff. But then I'm like, I mean, it makes sense that they have to do certain things. Like I'm not, I don't run the school.

Adam Kennard (31:23)
Yeah.

Scott Hughes (31:37)
you

Noah (31:40)
nor should I.

Ken Shek (31:40)
We come from the doer world though. We lose money if we don't make

decisions quickly and keep moving forward. It's like, well, let's think about this for three years and then we might get to half a decision. It's like, I've already made a decision six months ago. Let's just keep moving.

Adam Kennard (31:45)
Right.

Right.

Scott Hughes (32:02)
Well, on this note, I thought about this because there was a conversation we had at the Sachko teacher appreciation dinner and my curriculum came up and somebody I respect was like, I've know that curriculum and I think it's garbage. And I'm like, you know, like, and I, and I know that it's not loved by everybody.

And so my thought was though, how do you, I feel like it's a good attempt at standardizing training nationwide. That's a tall, tough task. And so like, and I have lots of frustrations with the curriculum we use, but like it is guiding us and I have the freedom to like build whatever projects I want to teach those things. And like, we're still cutting boards and laying out stuff 16 on center. Like, so I'm like,

Adam Kennard (32:35)
Yeah.

Scott Hughes (32:54)
Until there's like something better, you know, I think it, I think it's pretty good and good.

Noah (32:59)
I'll say this,

because you might be talking about NCCR. I felt that way going into it, and that's just my ignorance. ⁓ And it wasn't until you said you did it. This year, all of my 2s and 3s graduate with CoreCraft, and the goal is to get them Carpentry 1 certified. And it wasn't until you said it, until I was like, you know what? I'm probably wrong. I probably need to readjust this, rethink it, and maybe in my ignorance, just, you know.

Scott Hughes (33:26)
Well,

as the years have gone by,

Noah (33:27)
Take some advice

from someone that's been doing it for a lot longer and probably learns a lot of stuff.

Scott Hughes (33:32)
Lots, lots

on. So what, what I thought after.

Noah (33:35)
It

Adam Kennard (33:36)
That's a wig.

Noah (33:37)
was a dig

as I was trying to give you a compliment. ⁓

Scott Hughes (33:40)
Thanks.

Adam Kennard (33:42)
He's actually wearing

Ken Shek (33:42)
cut those back-handed.

Adam Kennard (33:43)
a wig. He doesn't have any hair now.

Noah (33:43)
Yeah

Scott Hughes (33:46)
As the years have gone by, what's funny is I've realized, because I'm like, there's times with any curriculum, I'm like, ⁓ I've never seen this out in the real world, whatever. And, you know, as the years have gone by, I've realized like the universe doesn't revolve around me. And the way I've been doing it isn't how everybody does it. So like, I remember seeing a rain screen.

in a textbook a long time ago and I'm like, this is craziness. What is this? And I asked some of my buddies that were in commercial and they're like, ah yeah, it's in commercial construction. I'm like, yeah, cool, like throw it out. And now I'm like, that's all, like, it's it's things, it's something we do and it makes a house awesome. Yeah. And I'm like, huh, wish I would have like bought into that a decade ago. So, yeah.

Ken Shek (34:27)
It's a big deal, yeah.

Adam Kennard (34:36)
You would have been a trick setter.

Scott Hughes (34:39)
So, and that was something like, it's in a textbook, but just cause it's on paper, like, should we throw it out? No. Like, I don't know.

Ken Shek (34:48)
the guys 20 years ago that were not building high-end stuff they didn't use that technique so it was a waste of time and that's how you were trained and I think that's part of two like you have to go in with that hungry always trying to learn something new mindset and you'll be successful in this industry but if you go in there and this is the only way I do it there can't be any other different way that I can do it and I don't even want to try a different way like

Scott Hughes (34:53)
Not at all.

Adam Kennard (34:56)
Right.

Scott Hughes (34:56)
Right.

Ken Shek (35:18)
I'm constantly on YouTube learning from Jared Kaufman, who is basically 20 years younger than me, but has been in the industry his entire life and is a super smart 23-year-old that is a good teacher. And I try to implement some of his videos in my class to get that hungriness out in kids. There is younger people that are super successful at this.

Adam Kennard (35:30)
you

Ken Shek (35:46)
Granted, not everyone's gonna be a Jared Kaufman. It's like making it to the NFL. But he has a unique perspective and it's kind of a cool way of teaching stuff.

Scott Hughes (35:58)
Agreed. And the other thing I would say real quick is that the balance between being out on the cutting edge of like the new stuff versus like how we've always done it, about, you know, finding that balance. like, ⁓ we're still allowed where, where I live to do like two by four, ⁓ 16 on center with like Tyvek and in like panel sliding on top. And like, I've heard like,

Noah (35:59)
Yeah, definitely.

Scott Hughes (36:29)
You know, you watch like Matt Risinger videos or other people like, man, we shouldn't be building like this. This is terrible. And I'm like, that's what we do. So it's like, you need to teach kids how to like go out and survive in the market we're in, but also let them know there's something better and there's a better way to do it. So there's kind of that, that balance. I think we should kind of our role, you know, like not every is going to have lasers and saw stops and all that cool stuff, but like, you know, like

Saw stops aren't that much more expensive, know, and like you could have one and maybe save some money on your workman's comp insurance or whatever. You know, like there's better ways to do things. We don't always have to do it the same way. So.

Ken Shek (37:10)
Being in my class is so basically we have three hours a week and it's all hands on and that's what I try to do is like I'll have groups of like three or four students and then like one student will build a wall structure with OSB and tie back and then the other another group will build it with zip and all they have to do is tape it so they're getting experience with like wow there's a lot more steps to that and you have to really hit the details

Whereas there is better material and it's more expensive, but it's less labor and it's way simpler to crush those details. So I try to give them that kind of perspective is there's all kinds of ways to do stuff. Some are better than others and you have experience of which ones you would prefer.

Scott Hughes (37:50)
Yeah.

Adam Kennard (38:01)
Yeah.

Scott Hughes (38:01)
Yeah.

Noah (38:01)
And

at the end of the day, quality is what, like you can give the same materials to anybody. I can't build to the level that Matt Reisinger builds, right? You can give me the exact same stuff. He's just going to build it better. Now can learn from that and I can, you know, build better. I want my students to build really well, whatever it is, whether it's two by fours, two by sixes, exterior walls, whatever that is. If you just build really well and take your time as far as focus on those details, I think that's what.

ultimately is most important.

Adam Kennard (38:34)
I mean, I've heard him and Steve's or Matt and Steve say like a well executed system and you nail the details like they're not at like.

If you have a system, whatever it is, whether it's Tyvek or Zip or whatever, but you can nail the details every time, then like do that system well. So, you know, yes, there's preferences and you know, people grow into preferences so many times, but they will acknowledge ⁓ that a well-done system is a well-done system. Now, to your point, to all of you, mean, Ken's point, sometimes it's like, well, you know, maybe certain details need a... ⁓

Scott Hughes (38:56)
Yeah.

Adam Kennard (39:16)
lend towards more skill than other details. And that's where sometimes, you know, you can vary. But I think, you know, like I think that's a great example. Ken's doing in the shop is doing different mockups in different ways to try to give them as much experience of what you will see, what you could see on a job site.

Noah (39:38)
Yeah, because you don't want to send students out and the first job and they're like, hey, by the way, first day, you're doing this wrong.

Scott Hughes (39:41)
Okay.

Adam Kennard (39:43)
Hahaha ⁓

Ken Shek (39:47)
Yeah, you don't want that for sure.

They'll be like, what'd say? Get a hammer chucked at them.

Noah (39:51)
You

That's right.

All right, so I think we'll wrap things up.

Scott Hughes (40:04)
Yeah, I think, this could, we, and this can be like something we could come back to. I mean, I think this is maybe not even a part two, but maybe just revisit later. think, I feel like how do you get kids excited for this? I don't know. Like, this is a good one. This is a good topic.

Noah (40:05)
We can edit it.

It's good even just for me, hear things like you said about the mission statement and things like that. There's things that I, you know, we can all implement doing the mockups. I've, I don't know why I don't, I should have my carpentry one students doing a bunch of mockups and stuff like that. There's stuff that like even just for my own self, if I walk away from this and be like one or two students benefited, my teaching got better. That's what I, you know, the ultimate goal.

Scott Hughes (40:22)
Yeah.

Um,

I heard Matt Bloomquist say at that zero failures in Colorado this past summer, he goes, you know, a third of the kids like are just crushing it. You know, they're going to go on and be great construction workers. That's third or like, kind of like, uh, you gotta, you gotta keep motivating them. And then there's a third, you're like, you have to go find because they're hiding and not, and I'm like, that is amazing. I, I am not alone. Like,

I thought I was weird, no, sounds like, because he's, from what I see on Instagram, he's amazing and does amazing stuff, has cool projects. I'm like, if you have those same struggles, like I'm normal.

Noah (41:25)
At the end of the day, he still has kids hiding and vaping.

Scott Hughes (41:28)
Yes,

that is not good for him, but good for me.

Adam Kennard (41:29)
You

Noah (41:33)
Yeah, and they'll actually probably do pretty well on the job site.

Scott Hughes (41:38)
Well, and what's funny is like, mean, think of all the people we know we went to high school with and like, you know, 10 years out, 20 years out, like the superstar athlete, maybe they're doing okay now, but like maybe the people that were quiet or unmotivated may be out there crushing it. So I don't

Noah (41:57)
the end of the day, something caused us all to want to be a shop teacher. That wasn't our trajectory, right? So like, who knows what can happen in someone's life. So I certainly don't. I wish I didn't go on that trajectory sometimes. Just kidding. All right.

Do you wanna do the outro Adam

Adam Kennard (42:20)
Yeah, what do we say?

Ken Shek (42:22)
you

Scott Hughes (42:24)
Go drive a screwdriver into a tree.

Noah (42:24)
Nice.

Adam Kennard (42:26)
Right, go drive a screwdriver into your tree. Frustrate your father to the nth degree.

Noah (42:33)
Also, thanks for listening to the 4 Man Podcast.

Adam Kennard (42:33)
So yeah, that's always good to